Minutes of the X meeting of the EUROSAI Training Committee, Vilnius (Lithuania), 7-8 July 2004

The EUROSAI Training Committee (ETC) consisting, according to the decision made in Madrid on 16 February 2000 by the Governing Board, of 8 members, namely Spain and France for the presidency, Portugal, United Kingdom, Czech Republic, Germany, Poland and Denmark, held a meeting in Vilnius (Lithuania) on 7 and 8 July 2004. According to the decision made by the Governing Board in Copenhagen on 7 March 2002, the SAI of Lithuania attended this meeting as an observer. Due to the agenda, representatives of the Chartered Institute of Public Finance and Accountancy (CIPFA), INTOSAI Development Initiative (IDI), SIGMA, the European Court of Auditors (ECA) and the SAIs of Hungary were also invited to attend this meeting. The representative of the EUROSAI Presidency (SAI of the Russian Federation) excused the attendance. The representative of SIGMA could not attend the meeting for supervened reasons.

Mr Philippe Milhat, representative of the SAI of France, welcomed the participants on behalf of the co-presidency and thanked the SAI of Lithuania for hosting this meeting.

1. Adoption of the conclusions of the Copenhagen ETC meeting and adoption of the draft agenda

The final draft version of the conclusions of the ETC meeting held in Copenhagen on 24 and 25 November 2003 were adopted without any change.

The draft agenda of the Vilnius meeting was adopted just changing the order of presentation of item 3.1 before item 2.

3.1. Exploring other issues: Certified European Public Auditor qualification

Mr Noel Hepworth, presented the Chartered Institute of Public Finance and Accountancy (CIPFA).

CIFPA was established in 1885, has a Royal Charter and is a UK registered charity specialized in training staff in public sector financial management and audit for public sector bodies. CIFPA is also member of IFAC and of the Fédération des experts comptables européens (FEE).

Mr Hepworth showed what a professional qualification adds and the high interest of accountancy for the public auditor who is interested in stewardship, value for money, risk and the way it is managed and therefore in the overall corporate governance arrangements.

Then he presented various alternatives to develop accountancy and audit training by means of short courses to emphasise particular work based and specialist requirements, by means of university degrees including post graduate degrees and by means of professional accountancy training. The programme of this training requires specifically to adapt syllabus and training materials to local circumstances. He insisted on professionalism that supposes ethics, public interest and adherence to international standards.

Mr Hepworth declared CIPFA to be the relevant UK body to establish a Certified European Public Auditor qualification. CIPFA currently provides a bilateral international qualification training measure with Slovenia, supported by the World Bank and other aid agencies. Therefore CIPFA could deliver an international certificate and diploma qualification based on distance learning adapted to the needs of each country, capable of being translated in local languages. The scheme needs local university support.

CIPFA offers EUROSAI to establish joint working party to agree on a professional level of qualification, syllabus and work experiences. EUROSAI members should identify academics partners. Funding sources could be explored both by EUROSAI and CIPFA.

Ms Francisca Schmitz, representative of the SAI of Germany, wondered how CIPFA could be able to adapt the training to local circumstances in consideration of diversity of administrative systems and institutions. She was surprised that proposed training emphasizes on practical aspects of the audit due to this diversity.

Mr Hepworth answered there was no difficulties with that because CIPFA supplies a common platform of knowledge adapted to the individual demand of the organisation. However, CIPFA depends on the support of the SAI that wishes to apply CIPFA’s training scheme. To do this, the SAI must in particular do preliminary research in order to assure that its country’s law is compatible with the programme that CIPFA offers.

Mr. Miskinis, representative of the SAI of Lithuania, asked what languages will be used for training and testing. He commented that if there will be a translation from English to national languages the level of requirements will be different almost to the same extend as it is now when national certifying systems are used.

Mr Hepworth answered that it is expected that national languages could be used. In relation to the level of competence, he explained that CIPFA will use a rigid system of quality control. Up to 20% tests could be fully translated if necessary.

2.1. Training Strategy : Introduction and reminder

Mr Milhat, representative of the SAI of France, made a review over the background of the ETC; how it was created in 2000 and the first steps given in order to promote the celebration of training events, to co-operate with IDI and to constitute a Training web page in the scope of the web page of EUROSAI. He remembered the main questions raised by the ETC in relation to the promotion of the training activities, the procedures to make it effective and the possible ways for funding them. He reminded the mandate given to the ETC by the V Congress of EUROSAI (2002) for carrying a preliminary study out for designing a common Training Strategy for EUROSAI and the main results of the questionnaire presented and the decisions made during the EUROSAI Governing Board meeting in Rome on 28 October 2003. The mandate of the ETC for carrying out the Training Strategy was extended for two years till the next EUROSAI Congress, to be held in Bonn (Germany) in 2005. The ETC was entitled to build an operational plan on the six agreed objectives and to explore further issues which gained less consensus.

2.2. Training Strategy: Update on the information provided about the ETC activities

Ms. de la Fuente, representative of the SAI of Spain, commented the participants the information about the current activities of the ETC that had been provided by its co-chair with the occasion of different meetings; in particular, at the European Union Contact Committee meeting (Prague, December 2003), the III Conference EUROSAI-OLACEFS (May, 2004) and the European Union Liaison Officers meeting (May, 2004). The information included a general approach to the ETC and the update of its activities. Under this second item, information was provided on the EUROSAI support to IDI training activities, the co-operation with EURORAI and Universities, the development of the use of IT in benefit of training and on the role of EUROSAI publications (Magazine and Newsletter) concerning training. Further questions for the implementation and promotion of a fruitful training process were also exposed, like the importance of strengthening training policies of each SAI at internal level and of exchanging training material, the eventual interest of drafting common guidance for planning and programming training by the SAIs, as well as the consideration of co-operation as a key piece to strengthen quality and intensity of training policy at individual level (in each SAI) and at the level of EUROSAI.

Mr. Miskinis, representative of the SAI of Lithuania, made a presentation on the need of checking the adequacy of training strategies. He exposed some experiences and dealt with some topics of common interests on the issue, concluding how being aware of the real adequacy of the training policy is the first step to improve its efficiency. He pointed out the importance for training strategy to be designed taking into account the needs of the organisation (specific objectives, level of staff competence, self-assessment arrangements, resources available) and the steps to be followed for programming it and to put it in practice, following a day-to-day operation mode. He also exchanged thoughts about the necessity of revising the training strategies and on the importance of taking into account other’s experiences for learning and applying them to the own systems with the necessary adaptations.

3.1. Exploring other issues : Key training available on Internet

Mr. Milhat, representative of the SAI of France, reminded the participants the results of the questionnaire on this issue. It showed the high interest of the EUROSAI SAIs on it but it also raised that it involved certain difficulties to be overcome (few supplies, language barriers, means and costs).

Mr. Jezierski, representative of the SAI of Poland, answered about the real possibilities of e-learning.

Mr. Milhat answered that by the moment it was an item to be studied and insisted on the difficulties to perform it.

Ms. Kristensen, representative of IDI, explained their pilot experience in the area of e-learning. By the moment IDI is facing its first step in a co-operation programme with OLACEFS on performance audit addressed to a group between 40 and 60 junior staff. It is organised under the scope of OLACEFS and is financed by IDI. Partners have been asked by IDI during the last OLACEFS Assembly for participating in this pilot experience. Good results are expected from it though, by the moment, it is too early to check it. Additional information on the implementation of the programme will be provided in a successive meeting of the ETC.

3.3. Exploring other issues: Guidelines for managing training within SAI.-Exchange of ideas on national training strategies

Ms. de la Fuente, representative of the SAI of Spain, reminded the participants the results of the questionnaire on this issue, stressing the importance of respecting the independency of each SAI for planning and programming its training strategy as well as the interest of exchanging information and experiences to help strengthening the internal training strategies. She invited the participants to provide information about the training strategy of their Audit Institution. She also kindly requested IDI to share their experiences in relation to the design of its training strategy.

Representatives of all the participant Audit Institutions made a brief overview of their respective internal training strategies, explaining the process of planning at short and long term, the goals pursued, the main topics selected for training (special attention is paid to courses on foreign languages), the availability of training material, the projects to be dealt with, the co-operation carried out with other entities like universities and Governmental Departments, and the combination of in-house and external training at the Audit Institutions.

During the discussion, Mr. Bedwell, representative of the SAI of the UK, mentioned already existing documents such as “Training Programmes for NAOs”, circulated during the XV INTOSAI Congress in Cairo in 1995, and “Suggested Guidelines for Trainers”, circulated by IDI during the XVII INTOSAI Congress in Seoul in 2001.

Representatives of some SAIs (German, British and Portuguese SAIs) offered to provide the co-chair of the ETC their training guidelines or plans for information and to be delivered as convenient. Also IDI reminded the availability of its general guidelines for trainers on its web page, that could be used a supplement to SAIs’ strategies. The ETC will consider as making these information available to all EUROSAI members and how to do it.

Ms. de la Fuente pointed out that it would be convenient to go further on the issue concerning the consideration of the convenience of drafting some training guidance and proposed to have a brainstorming at the following meeting of the ETC in order to exchange ideas on the next steps to be given, the possible problems that can be raised and their possible solutions, and the desirable goals to be reached.

4.1. Building operational plan – objective 1 : delivering training through seminars, events

Ms. de la Fuente, representative of the SAI of Spain, introduced the item presenting some overall comments. She made reference to the seminars foreseen to take place in 2004 under the direct scope of EUROSAI giving the floor to the representatives of the hosting SAIs.

Mr. Jezierski, representative of the SAI of Poland, provided details on the preparation of a Seminar on “Tax and Custom duties Audit” that will take place in Golawice (Poland), on 4 and 5 November, divided in four working sessions. All the EUROSAI members SAIs will be invited to send a representative. He explained the practical details of the organisation and the work carried out, and the meeting held in February 2004 by a preparatory working group formed by the SAIs of Poland, Germany, Czeck Republic and Russian Federation as well as the ECA, with the attendance of the French SAI in representation of the ETC co-chair. The seminar materials will be available on-line from the web page of he Polish SAI.

Ms. de la Fuente commented the participants, on behalf of the SAI of the Russian Federation, that it will not be possible for them to organise a Seminar on “Fight against fraud” as it was their intention. She asked if anybody else could take this initiative in 2005.

IDI informed that a seminar on the issue has been already celebrated by AFROSAI in 2004 and that ASOSAI will organise another one in early 2005, so that some material could be already available on it.

Ms. Soerensen, representative of the SAI of Denmark, announced the availability of the Danish SAI to host in 2005 the foreseen Seminar on “ Audit of Public Procurement”.

Ms. de la Fuente thanked the representatives of the above-mentioned SAIs for offering to host seminars and events in the framework of EUROSAI. She reminded the principles agreed by the ETC in relation to the organisation of this kind of training activities as maintaining them opened to all the EUROSAI members and trying to limit the number of participants in order to make them fruitful and lively and to avoid excessive organisational costs, with the possibility of duplicating the activities when necessary.

4.2. Building operational plan – objective 2 : supporting EUROSAI – IDI activities

Mr. Geagea, representative of IDI, made a presentation on the current stage and next steps of the EUROSAI Long Term Regional Training Programme (LTRTP). She commented that, after the successful completion of Phase I devoted to SAIs of the candidate countries, Phase II started at the end of 2002 with the Strategic Planning Workshop held in Zagreb (Croatia). In addition to SAI’s from the Balkan and eastern “non-candidate” countries, Phase II is opened to 6 Russian speaking Central Asia countries. After preparation in 2003 (translation of course materials, selection of participants, recruitment of a Russian speaking assistant, etc.), training activities are taking place from Spring 2004 to Fall 2005, delivered in English and Russian. She reminded that the Norwegian Government is funding Phase II, with the exception of a 110.000 Euros grant approved by the EUROSAI Governing Board during its meeting in October 2003. She also explained the successful results reached by the moment but also the difficulties found to carry out the Programme.

Ms. Schmitz, representative of the SAI of Germany, asked about the forecast of new training projects by IDI once the LTRTP is finished. She pointed out the importance of EUROSAI obtaining added value from co-operation between EUROSAI and IDI. In this context, she stressed that EUROSAI allocates about 60% of its budget to support IDI. She also pointed out that the LTRTP is largely aimed at members of ASOSAI and AFROSAI. However, those organisations’ own contribution to the programme was not clear.

Ms. Kristensen, representative of IDI, answered that there were no concrete projects yet but she assured that they will inform EUROSAI about them as soon as they have more detailed perspectives. She kindly requested EUROSAI to continue the support to its activities.

Ms. de la Fuente, representative of the SAI of Spain, reminded that the financial support to IDI from the EUROSAI budget will be finished once the next budget is approved at the next Congress.

Mr. Bedwell, representative of the SAI of the United Kingdom, reminded participants that the ETC had submitted to the V Congress, through the Governing Board, alternative proposals to increase EUROSAI members' subscriptions by either 50% or 100% to fund increased training activities within the Region. The V Congress adopted a 50% increase for these purposes. He felt that the ETC might want to consider recommending to the Governing Board, at some time, an additional increase in subscriptions to cover any proposed expansion of the EUROSAI Training Programme

Ms. Schmitz answered that she didn’t consider convenient a new proposal to increase the budget what meant increasing also the SAI’s contributions.

Mr. Bedwell asked the representative of the SAI of Spain, in her condition of representative of the EUROSAI Secretariat, to present to the next ETC meeting some financial information on the total amount of the EUROSAI budget, the contributions paid, the total amount devoted to finance training and the percentage that it represents over the incomes received.

Ms. de la Fuente assured that she will present the requested information at the next meeting. She pointed out that, once the priorities to develop a common Training Strategy for EUROSAI had been already identified, it was time to make a design of the operational plan to put it into practice, in order to present it to the VI Congress as part of the mandate received from the V Congress. So, she suggested to prepare a questionnaire to be circulated among all the members of EUROSAI in order the next steps to be given could be identified.

Ms. Schmitz offered the SAI of Germany to prepare a first draft questionnaire.

Ms. de la Fuente offered the help of the SAI of Spain to elaborate the first draft, in its double condition of co-chair of the ETC and EUROSAI Secretariat.

It was agreed that a draft questionnaire will be presented to the ETC at the next meeting to be commented and approved, if it were the case, and then circulated to the members of EUROSAI. An executive summary of the answers will be presented to the VI Congress.

4.3. Building operational plan – objective 3 : supporting needs of working and regional groups

Ms. Fonseca, representative of the SAI of Portugal, provided the participants information about a Seminar on “SAIs in the control of IT” to be organised by the Portuguese SAI in Lisbon on 13 and 14 October 2004, in co-operation with the EUROSAI Working Group on IT. She explained that the Seminar will have two editions, the second one to be celebrated in Vilnius (Lithuania) in 2005. The first one was foreseen for around 44 participants, representatives of the SAIs members of the IT Working Group and the ETC. Representatives of the IT Working Group of INTOSAI and OLACEFS will be also invited to this edition of the Seminar. She highlighted the fact that it was quite convenient the participation in the Seminar of an external expert from ISACA, who would provide technical information on IT systems. She pointed out that the Portuguese SAI will ask for a financial aid of 3,550 euro to the EUROSAI Governing Board for funding the expenses derived from the attendance of the above-mentioned expert. She asked for the support of the ETC for providing a favourable report to the Governing Board in relation to that request.

Ms. de la Fuente, representative of the Spanish SAI and of the EUROSAI Secretariat, remembered the participants the requirements to request financial aids from the EUROSAI budget. She submitted the request of the Portuguese SAI to the consideration of the ETC.

After discussing the issue the ETC agreed to support that request, insisting on the fact that each request of financial support for training activities should be carefully considered by the ETC one by one, not becoming an automatic process.

Ms. Eisnerova, representative of the SAI of the Czeck Republic, provided some information about the Seminar on “Performance Audit” to be organised by the Czeck SAI in co-operation with the Working Group of Audit Manuals. It will take place from 1 to 4 September 2004, with the attendance of around 40 participants from EUROSAI Audit Institutions and SIGMA. Ten speakers have been invited to the event and twelve contributions will be presented.

Ms. de la Fuente thanked the representatives of the above-mentioned SAIs for hosting seminars in the framework of EUROSAI.

4.4. Building operational plan – objective 4 : expand the use of Web Sites

Mr Sorensen, representative of the SAI of Denmark, made a presentation of the layout of the EUROSAI website, prepared by the SAI of Denmark in consultation with the SAI’s of France and Spain, and already presented to the EUROSAI Governing Board during its meeting in Rome, in October 2003. She announced that an amended version will be available for a following meeting of the ETC to have comments from its members before presenting it to the VI EUROSAI Congress.

Mrs. de la Fuente, representative of the SAI of Spain and of the EUROSAI Secretariat, reminded several issues in relation to the EUROSAI web page that had been already raised at the previous meeting of the ETC (Copenhagen, November 2003) concerning the content of the information included on it and the moment to be provided; the languages to be used for each kind of information; the provision of information to update the page, the necessary harmonisation of the information provided concerning national issues; and the request to the EUROSAI Working Groups, the ETC as a whole and the SAIs responsible for organising events to provide information for the web page. She also suggested new items to be included in the web page (relation of Presidents of the SAIs members of EUROSAI and technical responsible in each one for organisational issues, relation of members of the Governing Board, and information about entities that co-operate with EUROSAI). She requested the SAIs providers of information on the events celebrated to maintain the linked web pages updated.

4.5. Building operational plan – objective 5 : expand the co-operation with RAIs

Mr. Ostergard, representative of the SAI of Denmark, offered the available information on a Conference to be organised in 2004 by the Audit Commission of England and Wales, in co-operation with Audit Scotland (Scotland’s public sector audit Institution), to which representatives of EUROSAI and EURORAI will probably be invited. He confirmed the intention of holding it in English under the format of two days small scale workshop (around 20 participants), on a common professional theme still to be confirmed that involves co-operation between SAIs and Regional Audit Institutions. He pointed out that additional information would be provided as soon as it is available.

5. 1. Miscellaneous : Information on the results of the III EUROSAI.-OLACEFS meeting

Mr. Bedwell, representative of the SAI of the United Kingdom, provided information on the III EUROSAI-OLACEFS meeting held in London from 11 to 14 May 2004, under the Principle Theme “Audit in the 21st Century” and the two Sub-themes, “The experiences of SAIs and eGovernment” and “Training and equipping modern state auditors for their role”. 100 delegates from 37 SAIs (27 EUROSAI, 10 OLACEFS), the ECA, IDI and the International Journal of Government Auditing attended the Seminar, where it was debated wide-ranging issues concerning the impact of technological developments of SAIs. He also commented the conclusions for each Sub-theme and announced the hosting Institution for the next EUROSAI-OLACEFS meeting, that will take place in Peru in 2005. Information on the seminar, discussion papers, programme and conclusions are available in the web site www.nao.gsi.gov.uk/3eos.

5. 2. Miscellaneous : Information on EUROSAI magazine

Mrs De la Fuente, representative of the SAI of Spain and the EUROSAI Secretariat, informed the participants about the preparation of issue nº 11 of the EUROSAI Magazine: the reminders for contributions made by the EUROSAI Secretariat, the contributions received up to the moment, the information on events celebrated to be included on it and the two topics that will be object of special comment on that issue as they will take place in 2005 (the XV Anniversary of EUROSAI and the organisation of the VI Congress). She reminded that the deadline for sending contributions is 15 October 2004. She also gave information about the Newsletter published and delivered up to July 2004 (issues nºs 28 to 30); issue nº 31 will be published in November. She reminded the participants the requests made in the previous meeting of the ETC encouraging the presentation of contributions and the provision of information and news to be published. She said that the Magazine is opened to any comments that could help to improve it. She insisted on the idea of the interest of appointing a person in each SAI to act as contact person for EUROSAI magazine issues.

6. Date and place of the next meeting

Mr. Bedwell, representative of the SAI of the United Kingdom, kindly proposed to check the possibility of hosting the next ETC meeting (November 2004) in London.

Ms. Malatinszky, representative of the SAI of Hungary, kindly offered to check the possibility of organising the first one of 2005.

Ms. de la Fuente, representative of the SAI of Spain, reminded that it would be convenient for the first meeting of 2005 to take place before the VI Congress, in order to prepare the reports to be presented to its approval. She suggested to hold it no later than March 2005.

Ms. de la Fuente, representative of the SAI of Spain, thanked the representatives of the SAI of Lithuania for hosting the X ETC meeting and for all the attentions had with the participants and congratulated them for the excellent organisation developed. She also thanked the participants for attending the meeting and for their contributions to it. Then, she closed the meeting.