The Conclusions of the IX meeting of the EUROSAI Training Committee, Copenhagen (Denmark), 24-25 November 2003

The EUROSAI Training Committee (ETC), consisting, according to the decision made in Madrid on 16 February 2000 by the Governing Board, of 8 members, namely Spain and France for the presidency, Portugal, United Kingdom, Czech Republic, Germany, Poland and Denmark, held a meeting in Copenhagen (Denmark) on 24 and 25 November 2003. Following the decision made by the Governing Board in Copenhagen on 7 March 2002, the SAI of Lithuania attended this meeting as an observer. Due to the agenda, representatives of IDI, SIGMA-OECD, the European Court of Auditors, the SAIs of Hungary, Netherlands, and of the EUROSAI presidency (SAI of the Russian Federation) were also invited to attend this meeting.

Mr Yvan Pedersen and Mrs Lisbeth Soerensen welcomed participants on behalf of Mr Henrik Otbo, president of the Rigsrevisionen.

1. Adoption of the conclusions of the Pultusk ETC meeting and adoption of the draft agenda:

The draft conclusions of the Pultusk ETC meeting were adopted, with a slight change (last § page 4 deleted). The draft agenda of the Copenhagen meeting was adopted, with the two following additions under miscellaneous:

- information on the EUROSAI magazine (SAI of Spain) ;

- information on the 3rd EUROSAI/OLACEFS Seminar to be held in London in 2004 (SAI of UK).

2. Training Strategy : presentation of the results of the questionnaire and decisions made during the EUROSAI Governing Board meeting in Rome:

Mr Perron, representative of the SAI of France, reminded participants of the main results of the questionnaire presented, and of the decisions made, during the EUROSAI Governing Board meeting in Rome on 28 October 2003. The mandate of the ETC to carry out the Training Strategy was prolonged for two years as far as the EUROSAI Congress to be held in 2005. The ETC was entitled to build an operational plan on six agreed objectives and to explore further issues which gained less consensus.

3.1. Building operational plan – objective 1 : delivering training through seminars, events:

Mr Perron, representative of the SAI of France, introduced the point, presenting overall comments on answers to the questionnaire on this objective, and the list of priority topics selected by EUROSAI members. He underlined that i) some topics were of great interest for all European SAIs, ii) others were prioritised only in some sub-regional areas, iii) and some of them concerned also the scope of other working and regional groups.

A general discussion followed. Participants provided information on related initiatives developed in different circles on some topics mentioned in the priority list (taxation and customs, performance auditing, fight against fraud and corruption, environmental auditing, use of IT in auditing, etc.). The discussion also concerned the format of the seminars, the necessity to involve IDI Training specialists as much as possible, and the issue of opening seminars to all EUROSAI members or to limit attendance for some topics according to needs expressed in sub-regional groups.

Finally, the following decisions were made:

a As a principle, the format of the Training Events would be of a “workshop” style, limited to 30-40 participants, in order to keep them lively and to avoid excessive organisational costs, with the possibility of duplicating them when necessary.

a IDI Training Specialists should be invited to take part in these Training Events as much as possible.

a All Training Events will remain open to all EUROSAI members, whatever the topic dealt with.

a The topics chosen for EUROSAI Training Events for the three years to come are the following:

• 2004: “Audit of Taxation and Customs” hosted by the SAI of Poland in relation with the preparation of the EUROSAI Congress in 2005 ;
• 2005 : “The Fight against Fraud and Corruption” (host still to be confirmed) ;
• 2006 : “ Audit of Public Procurement” hosted by the SAI of Denmark.

The content and approach on each topic will be refined by the hosting SAI.

a Other seminars or workshops may be organised under different banners, using the results of the questionnaire. For instance, the following initiatives are under way :

• A Performance Auditing Workshop may be hosted in 2004 by the SAI of the Czech Republic within the network of acceding and candidate countries SAIs;
• A Workshop on Audit of Information System may be hosted in 2004 by the SAI of Portugal under the banner of the EUROSAI Working Group on Information Technology chaired by the SAI of Netherlands;
• A Workshop on Biodiversity may be hosted in 2004 by the SAI of Bulgaria under the banner of the EUROSAI Working Group on Environmental Auditing chaired by the SAI of Poland.

3.2. Building operational plan – objective 2 : supporting EUROSAI – IDI activities:

Mrs Geagea made a short presentation on the current stage and next steps of the EUROSAI Long Term Regional Training Programme (LTRTP).

After the successful completion of Phase I, devoted to SAIs of the candidate countries, Phase II started at the end of 2002 with the Strategic Planning Workshop held in Zagreb (Croatia). In addition to SAIs from the Balkan and eastern “non-candidate” countries, Phase II will be open to 6 Russian speaking Central Asia countries. After preparation in 2003 (translation of course materials, selection of participants, recruitment of a Russian speaking assistant, etc.), training activities will take place from Spring 2004 to Autumn 2005, delivered in English and Russian. Each language group selected “performance auditing” as a topic for the main eight-day course, and a two-day fraud module. Both will be prepared by participants, and delivered during the final regional audit workshops. Training specialists from Phase I (Latvia and Poland) will be involved in the instructional team. The first training activity (Course Design and Development Workshop) will be held in Bulgaria between April 26 and June 4 2004. The Norwegian Government will fund Phase II, with the exception of a 110,000 Euro grant approved by EUROSAI Governing Board during its last meeting in October 2003.

Mrs de la Fuente, representative of the SAI of Spain and of the EUROSAI Secretariat, informed participants of the Resolution adopted by the Governing Board concerning the grant of a financial contribution of 110,000 euros to IDI to be charged to the Budget of EUROSAI 2003-2005, for the financing of the LTRTP EUROSAI/IDI Phase II; an amount that will be paid in the following way: 40,000 euros a year in 2003 and 2004, and 30,000 euros in 2005: The aid granted by EUROSAI represents 7% of the total cost of the LTRTP and around 65% of the total amount foreseen in the EUROSAI Budget for aids and subsidies.

Participants underlined the importance to use as much as possible the IDI Training specialists in the various events organised by EUROSAI on a regional basis.

3.3. Building operational plan – objective 3 : supporting needs of working and regional groups:

3.3.1. EUROSAI Working group on Information Technology:

Mr Mantelaers, representative of the SAI of the Netherlands, presented, on behalf of the chairmanship of this Working Group, the current composition of this Group, created during the Moscow Congress in May 2002 (24 European SAIs, including all ETC members), the mission and the five projects defined during its first meeting in The Hague in October 2002. These projects include Training in the IT area. To assess needs and explore how to meet them, a questionnaire was sent to the WG, and a first inventory of the possible supply of IT training was made. This preliminary work showed that IT Training is really needed, while the supply is limited. On the other hand, the ETC questionnaire showed that i) supporting WGs is one of the ETC objectives, ii) IT is one of the “top ten” priority topics and iii) IT auditing is one of the two major areas of interest when it comes to WG activities. Therefore, cooperation and support between the ETC and the IT WG seem logical and necessary.

During the discussion, participants underlined the consistency of the answers to both questionnaires (ETC and IT WG ones), and the need to develop synergy and links between the ETC and the IT WG.

a As a first step in this co-operation, the SAI of Portugal kindly proposed to host a small-scale workshop for the IT WG members during the last quarter of 2004. The precise topic of this workshop will be refined, in relation with the SAI of Portugal, during the 2nd meeting of the WG to be held in Bern on March 2004.

3.3.2. EUROSAI Working Group on Environmental Auditing:

Mr Jezierski, representative of the SAI of Poland, made a presentation of the current and forthcoming activities of the EUROSAI Working Group on environmental auditing. Now consisting of 33 members, the Working Group is very active, both for initiating cooperative audits among its members, as well as for exchanging experiences during plenary meetings or specific seminars. In 2003, in addition to the organisation in Warsaw of the VIII meeting of the INTOSAI Working Group on environmental auditing, many audit activities were scheduled (audit of the Black Sea convention, audit of the Basel convention, a joint unique report on MARPOL convention developed by the Dutch SAI with contributions from each participating SAI). On the training side, the Dutch colleagues will welcome a WG Seminar on waste management auditing in The Hague in December 2003. The Workplan for 2004 will be discussed with the sub-coordinators during this meeting and approved during the IX meeting of the Group to be held in Bulgaria in 2004. The topic for the Training Seminar considered in 2004 could be Auditing the Biodiversity.

During the discussion, participants underlined the dynamism and effectiveness of this group, and the great interest of its works for all EUROSAI members, demonstrated by the answers to the questionnaire. Moreover, links have already been created between this WG and IDI, and the use of Training specialists during seminars of this WG should be further considered.

3.4. Building operational plan – objective 4 : expand the use of Websites:

Mrs Soerensen, representative of the SAI of Denmark, made a presentation of the layout of the EUROSAI website, prepared by the SAI of Denmark in consultation with the SAIs of France and Spain, and already presented to EUROSAI Governing Board during its last meeting in Rome, October 2003.

Mrs de la Fuente, representative of the SAI of Spain and responsible for the Office of the EUROSAI Secretariat (body in charge of the maintenance and update of the web page) raised several issues in relation to the EUROSAI web page: content of the information included on it and moment to be provided, languages to be used for each kind of information, provision of information to update the page, harmonisation of the information provided concerning national issues.

During the discussion, participants underlined the following points:

-       Putting the minutes of EUROSAI Governing Board meetings on the web site is an issue for the Governing Board and the ETC may not take any decision in this respect.

-       It should be indicated somewhere that while general material and information are translated into each of the EUROSAI official languages, documents related to Working and Technical Groups are available in English only.

-      When it comes to the page referred to as “international organisations and educational institutions", providing a single long list of universities without any hint of the domain and specialities dealt with may not be very useful. Information should be more thorough in order to facilitate research. Each SAI offering links with universities should therefore indicate the relevant domain(s) and working area(s) related to government auditing. In addition, new headlines could be added to this page, such as “other institutions” and “search engines”, following a suggestion made by R. Maggs, representative of the SAI of UK.

-      Each Working Group will remain responsible for the features and content of its website, linked to the EUROSAI general website. However, a minimum harmonisation of the presentation would be desirable, in order to clearly identify any WG as a EUROSAI WG. The layout of the Training web site will be revised and improved by the French SAI in close cooperation with Danish and Spanish colleagues.

-      The SAIs of France, Germany, the Russian Federation, Spain and the UK offered to revise the translation of the layout in their language. The SAI of Germany also offered to revise the German translations of the documents that the EUROSAI General Secretariat might decide to publish on the website.

-       The SAIs of Spain and the Russian Federation will provide some introductory words (to the page with photos of the Russian and Spanish presidents).

a The general layout with minor adjustments will be available in July 2004, for the next ETC meeting.

3.5. Building operational plan – objective 5 : expand the co-operation with RAIs:

Mr Pedersen, representative of the SAI of Denmark, reminded participants of the conclusions of the 2nd EUROSAI-EURORAI Conference held in Copenhagen on 5-6 June 2003 on the theme of Health Care. On the other hand, the answers to the questionnaire showed i) a clear interest from a wide majority of SAIs to carry on with cooperation between SAIs and RAIs and ii) they suggested some possible topics for new seminars.

Mr Pedersen indicated that the Audit Commission of the UK expressed its readiness to organise in 2004, with the support of the Danish SAI, a small-scale workshop (around 30 to 40 participants), held in English, on a common professional theme, such as the role of SAIs and RAIs in auditing funds reimbursement from national to regional level (topic still to be confirmed).

3.6. Building operational plan – objective 6 : expand the co-operation with universities:

Mrs Lopes, representative of the SAI of Portugal, introduced the discussion, explaining that, in her view, cooperation with universities should not be considered as a separate goal, but rather as a transversal activity which should be kept in mind while trying to achieve the objectives set down in the operational plan (for instance, in expanding the use of websites, delivering training through seminars, expanding the cooperation with RAIs, etc.).

During the discussion, Mr Maggs, representative of the SAI of UK, indicated that cooperation with universities is also considered as an activity, not as a goal in itself, in the draft INTOSAI Strategic Plan currently under way.

a Participants agreed that co-operation with universities should not be considered as a specific goal, but rather as a transverse activity to be remembered when achieving any training-related objective.

4.1. Exploring other issues : Key training available on Internet:

Mr Perron, representative of the SAI of France, reminded participants of the results of the questionnaire on this issue, showing, on one hand, great interest, but, on the other hand, many difficulties to be overcome (little supply, language barriers, means and costs)

During the discussion, participants also highlighted the interest and the difficulties of distance learning. IDI indicated that it is in an exploring phase in the area of e-learning. Developing such techniques may become a lot more expensive than one might imagine at first glance: in addition to the design of the course itself, procedures for checking and then testing knowledge understanding have to be designed, with the underlying infrastructure and staff. N. Treen, representative from SIGMA, indicated that distance learning has been experimented by the World Bank in the audit area, as well as by the IAA for certified internal audit qualification.

a IDI will share its experience on e-learning with participants during the next ETC meeting.

4.2. Exploring other issues : Guidelines for managing Training within SAIs:

Mr Perron, representative of the SAI of France, reminded participants of the results of the questionnaire on this issue, showing both an interest from a majority of SAIs and some concerns from others which consider “managing training” to be a part of the own competence of each SAI. Therefore, the proposal to provide some guidance has to be reconciled with the concern for independence.

During the discussion, Mr Bedwell, representative of the SAI of the UK, mentioned existing documents already issued throughout the SAI community, such as “Training Programmes for NAOs”, circulated during the XV INTOSAI Congress in Cairo in 1995, “Suggested Guidelines for Trainers”, circulated by IDI during the XVII INTOSAI Congress in Seoul in 2001. The SAI of Germany offered to make available to all EUROSAI members a document titled “Guidance on Continued Training at the Bundesrechnungshof and its Regional Audit Offices”. IDI expressed its readiness to offer its practical experience in this area. Mr Shelyuto, representative of the SAI of the Russian Federation, indicated that such training guidelines could be extremely useful for some newly established SAIs.

a Those participants having such material on “training guidance” available will circulate it, in electronic format, to all ETC participants before their next meeting. The ETC will then consider whether to make this information available to all EUROSAI members, and if so, how.

4.3. Exploring other issues : Certified European public auditor qualification:

Mr Perron, representative of the SAI of France, reminded participants of the results of the questionnaire on this issue, showing a lack of consensus on the idea of an agreed qualification scheme for basic training of public auditors, and a wide range of comments (from approval to objection) on the idea of a certified public auditor post-university qualification.

During the discussion, Mr Bedwell, representative of the SAI of UK, reminded participants of the presentation he made at the last meeting of the ETC (Pultusk, Poland, June 2003) on the training programmes for public sector qualifications in accountancy and audit proposed by the UK Chartered Institute of Public Finance and Accountancy (CIPFA). Nick Treen, representative from SIGMA, confirmed the professionalism and high quality of this programme. Mr Shelyuto, representative of the SAI of the Russian Federation, wondered about the cost and working language of the courses. Mr Bedwell reminded participants that detailed information on the cost of the programmes was available from CIFPA. Regarding languages, all courses are designed to be conducted in local languages rather than English, and on the basis of syllabuses derived from local law. Mr Perron underlined that the ETC should not move too quickly on this issue, which did not enjoy full consensus within EUROSAI, and the feeling should not be created at this stage that any private partner is being given priority.

a As a result of the discussion, it was decided to invite Mr Hepworth, chairman of CIPFA, to present its training and qualification programme during the next ETC meeting. This presentation does not imply any commitment from the ETC, and should be followed, as much as possible, by presentations on proposed training programmes for public sector auditors coming from other bodies.

5. 1. Miscellaneous : Information on EUROSAI magazine:

Mrs de la Fuente, representative of the SAI of Spain, informed participants that, at the request of the ETC, the EUROSAI General Secretariat had presented to the Governing Board the results of the questionnaire on the format and content of the EUROSAI magazine, which had already been presented to ETC members at the meeting held in Madrid in July 2002.

Mrs de la Fuente reminded participants of the general positive view expressed on the magazine and emphasised the main values pointed out in the answers. She also explained that the main suggestion made in the answers was to publish the magazine twice a year instead of once a year, in order to make it more dynamic. On this point the ETC agreed that it would be convenient to decide on the issue depending on the volume of articles received by the General Secretariat. According to the economic study made by the General Secretariat, the cost of an additional magazine would remain under acceptable limits for the budget; though any change in the current periodicity should be submitted to the EUROSAI Governing Board.

a ETC members were kindly requested to contribute actively to the magazine by sending articles and providing information on news or events taking place under the scope of EUROSAI, and to express their views on improving its format and content. Mrs de la Fuente also mentioned the usefulness of appointing a person in each SAI to act as contact person on EUROSAI magazine issues.

5.2. Miscellaneous : Information on the 3rd EUROSAI-OLACEFS Seminar in London:

Mr Bedwell, representative of the SAI of the UK, made a presentation of the 3rd EUROSAI-OLACEFS Seminar on “Audit in the 21st Century” to be held in London between 11 to 14 May 2004, and distributed the draft programme and other information documents to participants. The deadline for sending the contributions to the sub-themes chairmen is no later than 27 February 2004. An invitation letter will be sent in December 2003 and registration will be possible on the following dedicated website www.nao.gov.uk/3eos .

6. Date and place of the next meeting:

The SAI of Lithuania kindly proposed to host the next ETC meeting, on 5 and 6 July 2004 in Vilnius.